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RPT Newsletter #1,196 | How to Prevent Dead End Dice Rolls

How do you deal with failed dice rolls?

  • I ignore the dead end, regardless of the players' looks.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    28

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
The binary success or fail results are quick, but boring for me. I totally agree, @sheaeugene. I too usually always describe the results in a gradient manner, trying to create roleplay opportunity, actionable results, scenastic moments or difficult decision points with each result, often influencing other PCs in the process.
I like your table. But seemingly in contrast to you, I often decide in the moment and don‘t prepare an array of actual possibilities. This said, I do collect areays of possible results in my bucket list of what I want to see more of at the table (playing completely vtt though).
 

JonGraHar

Member
Gold WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
This table is great!

I agree with @Stephan Hornick. If you spent time prepping for each possible check, this would be a lot of work and also more arduous to share each outcome during the session. However, I do appreciate how this table demonstrates a higher fidelity of success rather than the pass/fail result.

The more I look at it, the more my mind thinks this way in game. So, to use @JohnnFour 's example "prepare to improvise".

As a musician, I prepare before jam sessions through practicing my scales and arpeggios, chord progressions and modulations. When it comes time to jam, I don't think about the music, but intuitively play. It sounds better in the moment given my prep work, although I may not use each scale or chord in that session. But the foundation is there because of out of game practice.

So, my take away - spend time as a game master building these tables for suspected future checks. Practice game out of session and during the session, the story will flow. And also, pass/fail works in a pinch.

Thanks for taking the time to form this @sheaeugene !
 

ExileInParadise

RPG Therapist
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
This touches a bit on one of the goals of my RPG - to wrap the result of the check with degree of success (or failure) in the outcome directly.

Degree of Success was one of the features of the Leading Edge Games systems (Phoenix Command, Living Steel) that I really enjoyed as a way for the system mechanics to go beyond "you win" or "you lose" a given contest.

But sadly, after the mid-1980's that idea seemed to die off and systems got more binary as they got more abstract and further from simulationist.

A table of "specific outcomes" would be too much prep for every roll... but the moments you are intending to be most important or have the most sway on the direction of the future ... those can be plotted out in more detail.

But, I'd rather just have the system and the die mechanics tell me how good or bad it was relative to the minimum needed to succeed.

At the minimum, some of the new games are encouraging the "did they fail a lot? did they fail just a little? did they succeed by the skin of their teeth? did they knock it out of the park?"

You can bolt that sort of range onto most checks "mentally" pretty well, even with something like D20 and its vs. DC type rolls.
 

JonGraHar

Member
Gold WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
This touches a bit on one of the goals of my RPG - to wrap the result of the check with degree of success (or failure) in the outcome directly.

Degree of Success was one of the features of the Leading Edge Games systems (Phoenix Command, Living Steel) that I really enjoyed as a way for the system mechanics to go beyond "you win" or "you lose" a given contest.

But sadly, after the mid-1980's that idea seemed to die off and systems got more binary as they got more abstract and further from simulationist.

A table of "specific outcomes" would be too much prep for every roll... but the moments you are intending to be most important or have the most sway on the direction of the future ... those can be plotted out in more detail.

But, I'd rather just have the system and the die mechanics tell me how good or bad it was relative to the minimum needed to succeed.

At the minimum, some of the new games are encouraging the "did they fail a lot? did they fail just a little? did they succeed by the skin of their teeth? did they knock it out of the park?"

You can bolt that sort of range onto most checks "mentally" pretty well, even with something like D20 and its vs. DC type rolls.
I wonder if you could have a cheat sheet table to aid in directing the narrative result.

1. you fail, something on the stage breaks, and your character sheet suffers
2. you fail, something on the stage breaks
3, you fail
4. you succeed
5. you succeed and fix something on the stage
6. you succeed, fix something on the stage and gain a "benefit to your character sheet."
 

ExileInParadise

RPG Therapist
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
I wonder if you could have a cheat sheet table to aid in directing the narrative result.

1. you fail, something on the stage breaks, and your character sheet suffers
2. you fail, something on the stage breaks
3, you fail
4. you succeed
5. you succeed and fix something on the stage
6. you succeed, fix something on the stage and gain a "benefit to your character sheet."

Sure, in a general sense that works as a good quick prep checklist as well.
 

rnadams2

New member
Failure should be a part of the game; if it isn't, then adventures will feel contrived. Failure builds drama and tension. But a roll of the dice should never shut an adventure down. If a failure would result in a dead end, I always use a "fail forward" approach. You pick the lock, but broke one of your picks off in the keyhole, or you found the clue, but you also attracted unwanted attention... something along those lines.
 

Gedece

Active member
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
I do some solo adventure writing over at Heroes Gate (nowhere near ready for prime time... but fun for me)
This would be difficult, I think... in real-time at a table but for textplay I often write out more complex "Result Tables" when a simple pass/fail seems dull and boring. Here is an example:

View attachment 2228

I definitely would change 15-19 to You land awkwardly on the snow cover wharf, you can attack the dwarf with disavantage
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
QUACKS — What To Do When Characters Fail
RPT GM TC

How about adding Skill Complication to QUACK?

The skill (or characteristic or stat) the PC used is degraded somehow next time it gets used. Maybe the next task that uses it becomes a bit harder due to the PC's sudden drop of confidence? Perhaps it isn't harder but there's an expected side effect? Maybe it degrades a characteristic for a period, such as a drop in Dexterity because a thumb got bashed? (Or the new Luck or Morale stats in Traveller drop a point.)

Comment From Johnn: I like it! Physical skill tasks become harder without rest. Knowledge skill tasks become harder without new inputs or rest. Emotional/social skill tasks become harder without rest or due to eroded relationship. And as you mentioned, confidence is a great factor too.
 

JonGraHar

Member
Gold WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
you know, I've been thinking about that lately.

Armor Class
Stats
Health Points
Inventory
Exhaustion
Stress Points

Theses are few things that can be "swapped" "reduced" or "traded" for players succeeding at a cost.

It's cool to think about how almost everything on the character sheet is negotiable to continue the story.
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
I think this approach has pros and cons.

Pro | As a player you get the feeling that ALL of your stats play a role and not only a few stats. It increases "motion" or "liveliness" in the game (if that is understandable)... it feels like the stats have influence on the story as if it was a living organism that can change. It also gives a hint of a resource depletion game on that aspect.

Con | It can become quite a hassle to keep track of. If you can automate it, you're fine. VTTs let you easily drop stats for a time. But if you have to keep track of it manually, during combat it can become a hassle.

Armor Class
Stats
Health Points
Inventory
Exhaustion
Stress Points
Nice list, Jonathan! I think I would have never thought of reducing armor class in D&D! But of course! If I can do it in other games like GURPS (here the dodge stat or actual damage resistance), I can do it in D&D also. Exhaustion or fatigue are nice ways to put a temporary influence on PCs, so long as it means something.
Do you just mean reduction of items when you talk about "inventory"?

Personally, I like giving out this kind of modifiers for situational circumstances. The ground is slick? Of course, your dodge / AC sinks. You have just parried one goblin in a melee, your perception and maybe even your dodge skill might be reduced to cope with the arrow that swooshes towards you from the side. You just jumped out of the way and are still skittering on the ground to come to a stop? Well, try to avoid the mighty club of the ogre that you landed in front with a malus to your dodge roll.
I tend to give out mali and boni for especially good roles and barely succeeded, almost succeeded and dramatically failed rolls. And in addition, by tactical use of their surroundings and the PCs' skills my players have the chance to apply these mali and boni also for foes and friends.
Right now, I am giving out per gut feeling (in GURPS +/- 1 or 2 as it is a 3d6 system). But I am currently considering to merge these to standard 1- or 2-markers of light and shadow.
 

JonGraHar

Member
Gold WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
I think this approach has pros and cons.

Pro | As a player you get the feeling that ALL of your stats play a role and not only a few stats. It increases "motion" or "liveliness" in the game (if that is understandable)... it feels like the stats have influence on the story as if it was a living organism that can change. It also gives a hint of a resource depletion game on that aspect.

Con | It can become quite a hassle to keep track of. If you can automate it, you're fine. VTTs let you easily drop stats for a time. But if you have to keep track of it manually, during combat it can become a hassle.


Nice list, Jonathan! I think I would have never thought of reducing armor class in D&D! But of course! If I can do it in other games like GURPS (here the dodge stat or actual damage resistance), I can do it in D&D also. Exhaustion or fatigue are nice ways to put a temporary influence on PCs, so long as it means something.
Do you just mean reduction of items when you talk about "inventory"?

Personally, I like giving out this kind of modifiers for situational circumstances. The ground is slick? Of course, your dodge / AC sinks. You have just parried one goblin in a melee, your perception and maybe even your dodge skill might be reduced to cope with the arrow that swooshes towards you from the side. You just jumped out of the way and are still skittering on the ground to come to a stop? Well, try to avoid the mighty club of the ogre that you landed in front with a malus to your dodge roll.
I tend to give out mali and boni for especially good roles and barely succeeded, almost succeeded and dramatically failed rolls. And in addition, by tactical use of their surroundings and the PCs' skills my players have the chance to apply these mali and boni also for foes and friends.
Right now, I am giving out per gut feeling (in GURPS +/- 1 or 2 as it is a 3d6 system). But I am currently considering to merge these to standard 1- or 2-markers of light and shadow.
Motion and Liveliness of the game promotes that feeling of immersion, so yes, I'm all about that.

Reducing the items example - falling from a staircase. Rather than suffering damage, what if you lost a spell book, magic crystal ball that rolls down the hall, or what if your favorite wand snaps in half? I like to do this in wilderness encounters where goblins not only attack, but steal inventory while a bigger monster attacks the campsite.

Mali/Boni - I like those terms.
 

ExileInParadise

RPG Therapist
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
you know, I've been thinking about that lately.

Armor Class
Stats
Health Points
Inventory
Exhaustion
Stress Points

Theses are few things that can be "swapped" "reduced" or "traded" for players succeeding at a cost.

It's cool to think about how almost everything on the character sheet is negotiable to continue the story.

A few RPGs have this sort of built in to their mechanics, which I built into my personal RPG ruleset.

Last Unicorn's ICON system, Dream Pod 9's Silhouette System, and Myriad RPG have a concept of "resilience" for the stats.

A resilience is like a health / hit point bar for that stat itself.

You overdo it on the Strength checks , your strength temporarily drops until you rest and recharge it.

Hit points are easily modeled as endurance or stamina resilience that you can also bolt hunger, thirst, etc onto.

But the resilience system really shined in letting you add "mechanics" around more abstract aspects of the character.

A "Nerves" resilience for an Intelligence or Will stat lets you deal with horror in much the same way as the famous Sanity check from Cthulhu games.

The resiliences were even able to help model social conflict, and romance/seduction type conflicts in spy games.

So, yes... everything on the sheet can be a "resource bar" in play
 

JohnnFour

Game Master
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Gamer Lifestyle
Demonplague Author
Borderland Explorer
It's cool to think about how almost everything on the character sheet is negotiable to continue the story.
Well said.

I see it as three layers of information we parse simultaneously.

Layer 1 is System. The character sheet antics. Maim, cut, poison, steal and whack away for conflicts. Buff, upgrade, boost for rewards. :)

Layer 2 is Story. So what's the meaning and context? What's relevant to the characters, players, and NPCs?

Layer 3 is Setting. How does the world make the story unique? How does the world present puzzles? How does the world explain the character sheet?

You can be in a layer and just need to add in the other two for a complete player experience. For example, you might start with a character sheet event and then weave that into a story with the setting providing the details.

Or you can take an external factor, such as Blackrazor the evil vorpal sentient sword, and apply all three layers to turn it into a cool encounter, 5RD, or Story Path.

I find a combo of al three essential for the best gaming moments.

And when something is off during a game that's not people-conflict, it's often because the GM is missing one or two layers.

For example, in a 5E convention game I was playing in, the GM had a fantastic story. Weak setting. And handwaved a lot of the rules. The session was a 5/10 for me, and it's because the handwaving meant I could not use the rules as an ally, and the weak setting gave me minimal options. I could only connect with the GM and the game through the story layer. That can be ok, but if that's the only part of the engine running it strains fast. And it's better to play a minimal ruleset as well.
 

JohnnFour

Game Master
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Gamer Lifestyle
Demonplague Author
Borderland Explorer
Con | It can become quite a hassle to keep track of. If you can automate it, you're fine. VTTs let you easily drop stats for a time. But if you have to keep track of it manually, during combat it can become a hassle.
This is a great point. You'll find I fretted a lot about this in the Archives as I spent a lot of word count over the years on GM, player, and session organization.

Having a stationery fetish didn't help. :)

(I had a stationary fetish once, but it never went anywhere.)

Anywho, over the years I found a number of GM aids and props to track temporary variables. I think one of the best things from D&D 4 and 5 is conditions. Put a condition marker on a PC's mini and you've got a whole family of stuff tracked. And then GM with conditions more often to take advantage.

Otherwise, we're looking at an app to do that. Some kind of information tracking app. Like, one that lets you riff off quick entries with tags and autocomplete for super faster updates. @Sarcasm :)
 

Gedece

Active member
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
In fate when narrating a scene I drop pieces of paper with scene aspects, and also with the newly discovered ones. This lets players center in the story while keeping in mind how to take advantage of it all.

I don't see any reason why this could not be done the other way, dropping a malus the player can keep track it's easier and making it physical when there's a card or paper saying it, and it helps him to keep it in mind not only for the mechanical dice roll, but also for any ideas he can have on getting rid of it.
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
You‘re right. Under the condition that it is a physical game and not via vtt.
 
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