• Hello game master! Welcome to our growing community. Please take a moment to Register (top right button, see how: Slides).

    If you use Campaign Logger, you can use the same login details - we've linked the app to this forum for secure and easy single sign-on for you.

    And please drop by the Introductions thread and say hi.

I hate spell slots.

PigMonkey

Member
Wizard of Story
I Teach D&D a lot and one of the biggest hang ups I have is explaining, spell level versus spell slots. I have never liked spell slots. I also do not like how there is not cost to magic. There must be some drawback to wielding cosmic power.
I hacked together some ideas for this and have play tested it twice it seems ok. I would like to hear what you have to say on it and if you would give it a try.

Goals and basics.
1.No more spell slots. Spell level occurs where you get access to that level as per normal. Spells are chosen as per normal.
2.A magic save is d20 plus proficiency bonus. Make a magic save when casting a chosen spell
3.Full spell casters (Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers) are clearly magic users from 100 feet away. Magic has changed their appearance in ways that make them unmistakably marked. Everyone is marked differently, but it is clear “this person plays with the energies of creation and destruction”. These are easily hidden with illusions as the changes are purely cosmetic in nature. Full caster Magic saves are are calculated at 8+spell level
4.Half casters (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Thief, Ranger, Paladins) appearance change when they cast a spell and stay until the next short or long rest. Their magic save difficulty are calculated at 10+spell level
5. New cantrip ‘casting circle’

Casting Circle
Casting: 1 action
Requirements: VS
Duration: Until used or cast again
Description: A small magic circle about 3 foot in diameter magically raises from any surface the caster can reliably stand on. If the surface is rough terrain or becomes rough terrain the spell is disrupted. The circle allows its caster to make Magic saves with advantage. Once completed, success or fail, the circle dissipates and must be cast again. The circle also dissipates if its caster steps out of the circle before it is used.


Wizards- Magic Twisters
Magic is Volatile
The fundamental building blocks of reality are refused to most normal people, those that take that poorly become wizards. Wizards are magical cheaters, learning how to identify, separate and recombine the volatile energies of the universe. They don’t start off volatile, but when you change what is into what you want to be, universal energies become quite dangerous.

When the Wizard Fails a save they take a level of exhaustion and suffer its effects immediately. The exhaustion passes after a short rest. This does not reduce exhaustion suffered for any reason other than magic saves. If a wizard is at the 6th level of exhaustion and fails a magic save they are converted into pure magical energy and dissipates leaving nothing behind. Any objects on the wizard are likewise converted.

Sorcerer- Magic Sources
Magic is Addictive
Magic emanates from the being of Sorcerers. Thus casting magic instills a will testing euphoria. It is highly pleasurable for sorcerers to cast their spells. Many sorcerers fall victim to the pleasures of their source. Those that have cast until they are killed, or die from “the wasting” a condition that ravages the body with residual magical energy.
When a Sorcerer Fails a Magic save they must cast another spell of higher level on the next available action, If they cannot cast a higher level spell they go into withdrawal but do not risk the wasting. The sorcerer can at any time choose not to cast a spell after failing a magic save, however this brings on immediate withdrawal and risks wasting. The spell cast after a failed magic save comes with a number of free Sorcery points equal to the level of the spell being cast and access to any metamagic, not just the ones known by the sorcerer. Using any of the free sorcery points imposes disadvantage on the current magic save. Sorcery points may be spent after the Magic save to increase the roll at a cost of 1 to 1. If a Sorcerer fails a save they may continue to cast until they succeed a magic save to stop casting without suffering the effects of withdrawal. They call this riding the lightning as they try to control their access to the source and purge their body of residue while at the same time remaining in control of their decisions
Withdrawal
Withdrawal lasts until the end of a long rest or the Sorcerer fulfills the requirement in their last magic save. While under the effects of withdrawal all D20 rolls are at disadvantage.

The Wasting
If a Sorcerer stops casting without making a Magic save first is at risk of the wasting. Roll 1d20 and add the level of the spell. If it exceeds the sorcerer's current CON score, reduce it by the level of the spell cast. If the Sorcerer is suffering from withdrawal, make it at advantage. CON can be recovered with a lesser restoration spell from a source other than the casters. Alternatively it can be healed after a long rest by expending 1 hit dice for every CON point recovered, This can take more than one long rest. Until all CON is recovered fully the Sorcerer does not recover hit points from any non magical healing.


Bard/ Eldritch Knight/ Arcane Thief - The Dabblers
Magic is Fickle
For the Dabblers, wielding magic is a tricky affair, not necessarily dangerous but not dependable. When a Dabbler fails a magic save, the spell they just cast is lost to them until they can finish a short rest. When they do they may expend hit dice equal to the spell they wish to restore rather than roll them for Hitpoints. On a long rest all spells are fully restored.

Cleric/Paladin
Magic is Duty
For the followers of a faith, casting spells is a matter of getting their god to pay attention to their desires. Gods are busy and can’t answer every prayer so they need to prioritize the incoming requests. This is represented by Piety.
A class of faith and duty, the piety of a character is their level +1 for full casters and half the level +1 for half casters. When the Character fails a Magic Save they subtract the spells level from the current Piety. The caster cannot cast spells of a higher level than their current piety. Thus a Character who has their piety reduced to 2 only has access to their first and second level spells.
After a long rest Piety is regained equal to the character's primary casting attribute modifier.


Druid/Ranger
Magic is Life
For those who wield the magic of the land, its use tends to be an all or nothing affair, winter or summer. Using the life of the land as a powersource is potent but diffuse. There is not enough energy in one place to cast even the most minor of cantrips. So before it can be used it must be gathered, and intensified into a usable form called a wellspring. Creating a wellspring is a relatively simple affair with enough time. The practitioner takes a number of minutes equal to the intensity of wellspring required to cast spells, with the energy gathered and contained by their will spell casting becomes possible. Then intensity of a wellspring is equal to the highest level spell it can cast. When a user of Land Magic fails a Magic save, their will falters and their wellspring pops, this renders magic inaccessible.
Forming a wellspring on the fly is a much more difficult affair. The player first decides what intensity of wellspring they need, pulling together a weak wellspring is much easier than an intense one. Then they take an action to make a Nature or Arcane spell check with a difficulty of 10 + the intensity of the wellspring required. With a success they can start casting spells up to the intensity of the wellspring. A failure means they must try again, but subsequent attempts are made with advantage. Druids alone may try to build a Wellspring with a bonus action, but it is done at disadvantage and does not give advantage on subsequent attempts.
 

Elric58

New member
Gold WoA
My honest first thought is that you really don't want people to play any class with spellcasting abilities. I love playing casters, full or half or less, but I'm positive I would avoid it with these rules. I understand that you're trying to make there be a cost for casting, but this set of rules makes it borderline insane to even want to go that route, especially with full casters who have little else to fall back on if their magic use is hamstrung or removed completely until a rest, short or long.

Unless the setting and rules in general are very gritty, where death and failure are far more real than most 5E settings and rules, then I feel like this rule set would nerf spellcasting to the point of utter frustration. You're also adding a lot of complexity and extra rolls (a saving throw for every spell that is cast), which will slow down a combat system that can tend to be slow to begin with, especially at higher levels of play.

I hope this isn't coming across as mean spirited, for that is not my intent at all. I'm not sure how I would tweak or fix what you propose. I'm not a fan of spell slots, myself, but am considering the optional spell point system. Another "option" I have seen is to make every caster account for all of their material components, which can be a pain, but can also limit the caster in what they have available.

Anyway, I hope others chime in with their thoughts. Good luck.
 

Ready To Role

New member
Gold WoA
Unfortunately I have to agree that my kneejerk reaction matches that of Elric58; if I saw these I just wouldn't play a caster, and probably just wouldn't want to play in the campaign at all.

Thematically, I think you're onto something really cool; magic has a cost and those that wield it are at constant risk of being consumed by it.
Mechanically, this is a mess and punishes players for wanting to do something other than swing a sword in combat.

To start with your first thought- spells slots vs spell levels: Yeah the naming here is pretty bad. I think someone can come up with better words used to describe this, but overall I don't think it's a hard concept to grasp after a session. I explain it as levels is the strength of the spell, and slots are how many times you can cast spells of a certain level.

For me, this is helped by the fact that I use game aides to help with slots at my table. I bought a 100 pack of 1.5" wooden disks and use a marker to denote spell slots and class abilities. In practice, this means I hand my 3rd level wizard 7 wooden disks at the start of each session- 4 that say "Level 1", 2 that say "Level 2", and one for "Arcane Recovery." I do this for every class, even non-casters like Barbarians to track their rage. My players toss me a token when they use the spell/class, and I hand them back out on the appropriate rests. It helps them visualize what they have available, it helps me know they're tracking it accurately, and it's a good quick mental break when they rest to pass them back out.

But it seems you made up your mind about not wanting to use them, which is totally fine! I also agree with Elric58 that spell points are a pretty decent option, not locking you in to certain casts but instead allowing more flexibility. I have another idea but I wanted to address one of your other thoughts first.

Your comment about there not being a cost doesn't quite sit right with me- because there is a cost (or at least, there's supposed to be a cost): less hit points, lower armor class, inability to use martial weapons well, etc. Divine casters get away with more than arcane but overall, the cost to cast a fireball is that you can't wear plate and attack a bunch of times in one turn. It feels like you're punishing magic users for the fact that they are doing what they are designed to do, however well you think classes are actually balanced. Also, magic is defined differently in different settings. I almost never consider it 'cosmic power' so much as just something that is a part of the world that some people can tap into if they're special or just try hard enough.

My two cents, if you really want something like this, would be to simplify it- and then use it as a push your luck mechanic. Whether you use spell points or slots or another casting pool- if you used something like this that allowed your magic users to cast BEYOND that pool at a risk of some kind then this changes from punishing to a risk-reward balance. Does the sorcerer cast an extra fireball, knowing that they might be consumed by the spell itself? If it's a dire enough circumstance, perhaps!

Quick and dirty idea: Each caster has a Mana Balance Score of 5. Every time they cast a spell beyond their daily limit, they add it to their Mana Balance Score and make a (spellcasting ability) check against it.
If they succeed, nothing happens.
If they fail by a difference of 1-5, they take 1d6 force damage and cannot cast for the rest of the day.
If they fail by 6-10, they take 3d6 force damage and cannot cast for the rest of the day, and cannot cast that spell for a week.
If they fail by 11-15, they take 7d6 force damage, cannot cast for the rest of the day, cannot cast spells of that school for a week.
If they fail by 16-19, they take 11d6 force damage, cannot cast for a week.
If they fail by 20+ they are turned into arcane power and everyone in a 30 ft radius takes a Dexterity saving throw or takes 12d6 force damage (half on save).

If augmenting the system or a simple substitute like the spell points doesn't work, I would genuinely look at other TTRPG systems instead of trying to replace a pretty major part of the D&D engine. I think there are other things out there that would be more satisfying for you to run than ramming your head against a system that isn't what you're looking for.
 

PigMonkey

Member
Wizard of Story
Thanks for your input. Genuinely, I'm not offended by people clearly and politely stating their mind. Its how we share the best information.

It is meant to be a different engine, and a different flavor of magic for every magic using class.
Magic was different in Darksun, I was going for that feeling. I wanted my players to look for other solutions before they turned to magic, and inspire thinking ahead. Magic is risky. its a classic theme of fantasy. I was looking for magic to have a cost other than failure. Perhaps it is more complicated than it needs to be. I am honestly not happy with sorcerers or clerics.

I would dearly love to play a system other than D&D, I know there are way better systems out there for my style. Alas, to most people, Kleenex is to Tissue as D&D is to role playing games. Don't get me wrong, I love role playing games of all kinds period, but chocolate milk at ever meal is boring.
 

JohnnFour

Game Master
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Gamer Lifestyle
Demonplague Author
Borderland Explorer
I like the flavour!

When I was teaching D&D 5E, I used spell cards and poker chips. I do not recall the 5E rules for spells now, it's been a few years since I GM'd 5E.

But, the spell cards helped a ton. They're tangible, players can study them easily or pass them around to ask questions about. And players know exactly what spell options are available to them on their turn.

And the poker chips were for tracking slots. I put numbers on them with a Sharpie pen. "1st", "2nd", etc. Each player got a stack of chips in amounts equal to their slots. They'd hand back the chips (put them in a bowl) when casting spells.
 

Derric Munns

Member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Hey @PigMonkey , I love the flavor theme of "Magic should hurt a little (or a lot)". My main system is DCC, it's build so magic can produce nasty and permanent effects, if you are too greedy or power hungry. Down side is the power of magic can be really swingy. But no spell slots, so spell users can push their luck as much as they want, casting spells until the demon gate opens and sucks them into the abyss.

I share your desire for the wasting/corruption/addictive aspects of magic even more than what DCC has built in, so I'm testing adding the "Infestations" mechanic from Cy_Borg. It gives the physical visual appearance you mentioned in Full Spell Users, but they can be triggered to give temporary negative effects (whenever you want), sometimes damage, but lots of other cool & twisty effects.

My main idea is for Infestations to become PC hooks. Want to remove/modify/get an infestation?...that's an adventure. Also certain infestations are prereqs for stronger magic, kinda simulates like the addiction angle. I have planned for an infestation to be a key to enter a dungeon. Another activates a magic item. Hook options are endless.

As an example: One of my DCC campaigns for my kids. My 12 y/o daughter loves any flavor magic user. Her left arm has been replaced with a Vrock's arm (kids just call it her "turkey wing"). Her right arm is skeletal with a magical gem embedded in her palm. Both came about from wanting more cowbell for her spells and being willing to pay the cost.
 

JohnnFour

Game Master
Staff member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Gamer Lifestyle
Demonplague Author
Borderland Explorer
DCC is fantastic! Been thinking of running some one-shots lately. Jonesing for a high mortality funnel. :p
 

PigMonkey

Member
Wizard of Story
I share your desire for the wasting/corruption/addictive aspects of magic even more than what DCC has built in, so I'm testing adding the "Infestations" mechanic from Cy_Borg. It gives the physical visual appearance you mentioned in Full Spell Users, but they can be triggered to give temporary negative effects (whenever you want), sometimes damage, but lots of other cool & twisty effects.

My main idea is for Infestations to become PC hooks. Want to remove/modify/get an infestation?...that's an adventure. Also certain infestations are prereqs for stronger magic, kinda simulates like the addiction angle. I have planned for an infestation to be a key to enter a dungeon. Another activates a magic item. Hook options are endless.
1. I like the DCC Magic system but I didn't want the option of spell failure. I want the spell and effect to be assured, but the outcome to be in question. Likewise I wanted people to see failure coming and a bad roll didn't result in instantaneous death. I feel a lot of this is pushing your luck.
2. The wearing the magic in their appearance was more about role playing than anything helping to make a clear separation of two socities, the Magic using wealthy and powerful, and the non magic users. Players from one have difficulty navigating the other.
3. Using infestation is a really cool idea. It reminds me of the chaos mutations from old Warhammer.
 
Last edited:

Derric Munns

Member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
1. I like the DCC Magic system but I didn't want the option of spell failure. I want the spell and effect to be assured, but the outcome to be in question. Likewise I wanted people to see failure coming and a bad roll results in instantaneous death. I feel a lot of this is pushing your luck.
Glad you clarified the assured outcome of the spell. I had read that wrong. I like the way you are tweaking the "pain/pleasure/cost" of magic, I'd play a magic user with these changes. And yes, I'm heavily influenced by old school Warhammer.

Casting Circle
Description: The circle allows its caster to make Magic saves with advantage.

This little Casting Circle morsel I love. I'm going to R&D (Rip-off and Duplicate) this mechanic. Since DCC has the spell failure chance, PCs always want to up the odds with the casting roll. I'm seeing a place in the game world where the PCs hunt for the forgotten tomes of the ancient and great Wizard PigMonkey to acquire his knowledge. The Casting Circle is going into my "Bucket of cool ideas to work on". I'll shoot back to you anything I develop before I bring it to the table.
 

PigMonkey

Member
Wizard of Story
Glad you clarified the assured outcome of the spell. I had read that wrong. I like the way you are tweaking the "pain/pleasure/cost" of magic, I'd play a magic user with these changes. And yes, I'm heavily influenced by old school Warhammer.
Spells failing suck. If you are going to have to pay for casting the spell, you are going to get what you pay for. It wasn't all down side, there were a couple mechanical bonuses that off set the price of magic. You were also automatically considered a noble.
This little Casting Circle morsel I love. I'm going to R&D (Rip-off and Duplicate) this mechanic. Since DCC has the spell failure chance, PCs always want to up the odds with the casting roll. I'm seeing a place in the game world where the PCs hunt for the forgotten tomes of the ancient and great Wizard PigMonkey to acquire his knowledge. The Casting Circle is going into my "Bucket of cool ideas to work on". I'll shoot back to you anything I develop before I bring it to the table.
It's all yours. No worries, Lie, Cheat, and Steal, its a DM's prerogative. I would be interested in seeing what you make of it. I am kicking around the idea of allowing it to work until the spell caster leaves it. I love the idea of going to get it from a wizards lair. Though less 'Great Wizard' and more 'Cautionary Tale' would be my story. It would also include a lot of wonky perspective and MC Echer drawings.
 

Derric Munns

Member
Adamantium WoA
Wizard of Story
Escher is a sweet idea! Great theme for a wizard lair, plays along nicely with the underlying "impossible geometry" theme in the campaign.
Thanks for the killer ideas mate!
 
Top