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I Need Some Help With My Current Adventure

Kza

Member
Wizard of Story
First, I hope this post is in the right section. Mods, please move it if it isn't!

Second, to get to my point of difficulty, I'm going to need to set up a lot of context. Listening to other people's campaigns can be like listening to other people's dreams -- a real drag -- so I promise to keep it as short as I possibly can, and make it as enjoyable to read as I can. That said, I might need more than one post to cover it all. My apologies in advance, not only for being so long, but also because I might not be able to get all these post written in one sitting.

Okay then! First, the characters. I'm not sure if it's 100% germane to my problem, but I can understand if people might want to know anyway.
We have (all 6th level, almost 7th):
Half Elf Cleric
Human Bard
Dragonborn Paladin
Halfling Druid
Halfling Sorcerer
Tiefling Rogue
Dwarf Barbarian (GMPC)

Now, the adventure:

THE LIBRARY OF THE GIANTS

The Tale So Far
: The Party are chasing a Cambion Wizard/Demogorgon cultist named Azoth, who is trying to piece together the stuff he needs to cast a spell that will summon a giant avatar of Demogorgon to destroy a local city. The pieces that Azoth needs are located in the Library of Giants, a legendary place, whose location was long-lost but, to get the point, both the Azoth and the Party learned the location of: It's on the moon! Azoth had about a day's lead on the party, and both took Giant-sized airships (don't ask) through space (don't ask) to land on the moon, with the Party taking a brief detour to liberate some of the slaves from a Mind Flayer ship.

On the moon, they learn from the local Moon Rock People that the Library, an extremely tall tower, was there, but has buried itself into the ground like a corkscrew, and currently like fifty feet under the soft, loose moon sand. The Party, with the Moon Rock People's help, dig down there, and the Party is able to enter the Library through the the large windows at the top of the tower. (This causes sand to begin pouring into the Library like a sand timer, which may or may not be important for finishing my adventure.)

The Party enters the Library, which you should imagine as like the Guggenheim Museum, only built for literal Giants. After exploring around a bit*, and coming across a party of renegade Mind Flayers who found their way in (not related to the ones they fought in space), and meeting the immortal Hill Giant who acts as the lone librarian, they figure out their goal and how to obtain it. Azoth has found his way to a Secret Forbidden Books Room, which is where the spell stuff he needs is kept, so the Party must find their way to that room, if they hope to stop Azoth from getting what he needs (and maybe just defeating him outright).

installation-countryside-the-future-srgm-2020.jpg

To get into the Secret Forbidden Books Room, they need the permission of Selune, the Goddess of Secrets, and her evil twin sister, Shar. They find Selune's room, and to get her permission, she gives each an individual secret that they are not allowed to share with anyone else (Big Campaign Secrets, in other words.) If they do so, they will be struck down dead. They then find Shar's room, and to get her permission, each character must whisper a personal secret about themselves to her (secrets that even the other players don't know). They do this, and they find the entrance to the Secret Forbidden Books Room, leading to an amusing (to me at least) bit where the Mind Flayers try to follow the characters in (they parleyed with them earlier, and are on neutral terms), but are stopped by an invisible unpierceable wall.

The Party is now in the Secret Forbidden Books Room.

*There's a lot more here I could talk about, including why the Library is corkscrewing itself into the ground, but I don't feel it's germane. If you disagree and want to know more, let me know.

Next: The Actual Problem!
 

Kza

Member
Wizard of Story
Part Two: The Actual Problem!
(I should take a moment to note that, in case you haven't figured it out, I'm not that big on what you might call "traditional" D&D worlds. Back in the day, I guess I would've been a big Arduin guy. I like weirdness and mixing genres, and I find the kind of baseline "medieval Europe with elves, etc." extremely boring.)

So where we literally last left our heroes, and where they have been for almost 3/4 of year now, is in The Secret Forbidden Books Room. Which hasn't been described in any way, as yet, so nothing's set in stone, everything's malleable.

This leaves me with the Actual Problem, which I can summarize thusly: I don't know what happens now.

Okay, that's not quite true. I do have some ideas I'm currently going with, but again, everything can be changed. So, if you have ideas or suggestions, feel free to color outside the lines I've drawn here.

So, in my mind, this Secret Forbidden Books Room is broken into three parts:
1. A kind of lobby/foyer area where someone, probably an avatar of Selune/Shar, gives the Party an idea of what's going to happen next, which is they will be presented with challenges to prove their worth;
2. The Party members are individually teleported to mini-puzzles/min-challenges (more on that below), that once they complete, they move onto:
3. The Actual Room Itself, which in my mind is a big confrontation with Azoth, although maybe it isn't? Depends what we come up with.

The one thing about this that is almost immutable, is that the second part was intended to be a series of puzzles and/or challenges, that are based on the secrets they whispered to Shar back in the other part of the adventure. When I made up that part, I genuinely had no idea I would be using that as the basis for next part of the adventure. And it seems silly not to use it. But how to use it? My first instinct was to use the 5 Room Adventure template, and since there were 7 secrets, one for each player, I doubled it up into 10 Rooms, and had it mapped out like:

1. Forbidden Room Guardian (Intro room/Guardian)
2. Secret #1: Puzzle or Role-Playing Challenge
3. Secret #2: Trick or Setback
4. Secret #3: Climax or Conflict
5. Secret #4: Reward, Revelation, Plot Twist
6. Secret #5: Guardian
7. Secret #6: Puzzle or Role-Playing Challenge
8. Secret #7: Trick or Setback
9. Final Room vs Azoth/Climax or Conflict
10. Reward, Revelation, Plot Twist

This is one of those things that looks good on paper, but falls apart under scrutiny. To actually play through this, as written, is to force the Party down a corridor, a gauntlet, with no real choices to make other than defeat the challenge and move on. It would probably be exhausting to play through with five rooms; ten, I think, would engender a player mutiny. If you were at Johnn's first Zoom session, you might've seen me ask about this problem. A lot of great suggestions were made, including what I think might've been the most important, was to be sure to give the Party an NPC or two to interact with during this sequence. However, I ended up coming up with my own solution, that I don't think anyone could have offered me, because they didn't have some important info:

Most of the secrets -- not all but most -- are very very very very silly.

ed30bede12fc26366ecdcd34172a36b8.jpg

Considering how silly most of them were, it seemed like a mistake to blow up each one and turn them into a whole thing. They are so silly, that the only real purpose they can serve is entertainment value, where the players can try to guess which of their fellow players came up with such a goofy secret. So, I decided that instead of a series of rooms that they all had to march through, each character would teleport into a puzzle/challenge room that embodies someone else's secret. The characters will have to defeat something/solve a puzzle thematically related to the secret, then guess whose secret they are in, with the avatar of Selune/Shar acting as game show host/sounding board/tormentor. The idea here is to give each character ~10 minutes of spotlight time, and (ideally) entertain the other players listening, who are either also trying to figure out whose secret it is, or snickering to themselves when they realize it's their secret someone else is in the middle of. The challenges/puzzles are not meant to be too serious or difficult, merely thematic. It may use up some of their resources, or it may not. At heart, this part of the Secret Forbidden Books Room is basically a party game.

Now, you may be wondering, how silly are we talking? Well, here's my favorite silly one:

"While the other characters are asleep, I sniff their feet."

The challenge there, I think, writes itself.

I'm feeling pretty good about this part of the adventure so far, but if you have any ideas or suggestions or warnings, please feel free to share them. This post is getting a little long, so I think I'll put the part I'm really stuck on, The Confrontation, in the next segment.

Next: The Confrontation!

ETA: I forgot to mention, one of the characters is my GMPC. There's a pro and con to this. Pro: one of my player's secrets doesn't lend itself too well to this Challenge Room idea. However, since everyone teleports individually, I can have my GMPC deal with that room "offscreen," and then on return, my GMPC can say to that player, "I have some questions for you when we get out of this" and just punt that problem to next time. Con: Now I need a secret for my GMPC. I didn't think of one, because I didn't know at the time it was going to be important.
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
Thank you for sharing your adventure and question here, Kent.
A1: First of all, you reach here more people than in the WoA restricted forum, so why not. It is not related to any course, so let's see whether other people have ideas also. I think this place is fitting.

Some background on my D&D 5e group. It currently consists of 6 other people: my daughter's Girl Scout leader (Elf Cleric), her teenage son (Human Bard) and two preteen daughters (Halfling Druid and Halfling Sorcerer), the husband of a different Girl Scout leader (Dragonborn Paladin), and my daughter (Tiefling Rogue). I also have a GMPC (Dwarf Barbarian), only because, when we first started, there were only 3 players, and as a lot of people know, the first Goblin encounter in The Lost Mine of Phandelver is pretty difficult. I've tried to phase him out, but the group likes him too much.
Q1: Next, as you know I have read all about your Serenissima postings. There you describe many of your players as young, three pre-teen girls, a teenage boy and two adults besides you. Do I understand correctly that it is the same party of players and PCs?
(It's not relevant, but is it an Elf Cleric or a Half-Elf Cleric?)
Whatever the case, I understand that you want to make the adventure less gritty and more sparkles, right? Thus, we don't need to give comments on feasibility or plausability of the journey, the encounter with mindflayers or the architecture of the library. I like it. It sounds fun. But I know players who wouldn't like it. Just saying. So let's keep your tone.

*I'm interested in as much detail as possible to see the whole picture.

Q2: So how did you leave the last session off? On a high note? On a low note? With a cliffhanger?

Q3: What do the players expect will happen and what have you thought of will happen?

Q4: Do I understand you correctly, that you want to use this adventure as a path to Serenissima? Or is it completely separate?

Q5: If you would classify your campaign until now, although it might be difficult, would you rather define it as an epic campaign with a big bad boss at the end focused on an inherent conflict, a player-focused campaign focused on the development of the PC, an open campaign with a series of non-related adventures, or a world building campaign where the setting is in the focus, or an evolving campaign that changes over the time?
Today, I stumbled upon Guy Sclanders video on campaign types and I realized that I had never thought about it. Including the great comments below the video, I think it is worthwile to think about this for a minute, especially the question of what the players expect and what you are thinking of and practicing.

Q6: What is the PCs' backstory with Azoth?

Q7: How did Azoth get the permission from the goddesses? If in the same fashion, did you make allusions to it through the goddesses?

Q8: What have you thought about the twin goddesses? Why do you choose twins? Did the PCs speak with the wrong one? Will it be used later on?

Q9: Do those goddesses and other people there live on the moon? What makes life there different? Maybe this question might give you inspiration for details.

But now, let's hear your problem.
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
Hehe... simultaneous posting. Ok, I'll check the problem later.
 

Kza

Member
Wizard of Story
I know I need to write up the next part, but I want to hit your questions while the iron's hot. (It's likely I'll give you more in-depth answers in the Part 3 post, since you've hit on stuff I need to talk about.)

Q1: Next, as you know I have read all about your Serenissima postings. There you describe many of your players as young, three pre-teen girls, a teenage boy and two adults besides you. Do I understand correctly that it is the same party of players and PCs?

Yes, same players!

Q2: So how did you leave the last session off? On a high note? On a low note? With a cliffhanger?

I would call it a cliffhanger? I'm not precisely sure how my players saw it. It was clear, I think, they were entering "endgame" territory, but there was no hint of what exactly was to come (because I didn't know!). I would also say I think it was a high note? All the characters save one has turned into a Giant (don't ask) and they seemed pleased with that.

Q3: What do the players expect will happen and what have you thought of will happen?

I do not know what the players expect, and honestly, I don't know how to answer the second part other than to say, That's what I'm trying to figure out here! :p

Q4: Do I understand you correctly, that you want to use this adventure as a path to Serenissima? Or is it completely separate?

It is not separate, not really. The city that Azoth wants to destroy is in fact Serenissima. (The characters had a brief day trip through Serenissima earlier in the campaign, so the city isn't totally unfamiliar to them.) What's going to happen after this are a couple of chapters straight out of Storm King's Thunder that will undergo some changes from me, but otherwise shouldn't take me very long to prepare. Another reason this is causing me stress! There's so much more fun to be had, but I'm all blocked up! All on this idea I need to follow through on.

Q5: If you would classify your campaign until now, although it might be difficult, would you rather define it as an epic campaign with a big bad boss at the end focused on an inherent conflict, a player-focused campaign focused on the development of the PC, an open campaign with a series of non-related adventures, or a world building campaign where the setting is in the focus, or an evolving campaign that changes over the time?
Today, I stumbled upon Guy Sclanders video on campaign types and I realized that I had never thought about it. Including the great comments below the video, I think it is worthwile to think about this for a minute, especially the question of what the players expect and what you are thinking of and practicing.


I will check out that video! And wow, I've never really thought about this at all, to be honest. This whole thing started when I was asked to run D&D and Phandelver, and when that was over, we decided to keep going, but I'm not much of a world-builder, so I've been creating it as I go along, like laying track in front of a moving train. Of the choices, I'd say it's an open campaign with a series of non-related adventures, but it's not a sandbox. It's kind of understood that I prepare the adventures, and they play through them. Not that anyone is against sandbox, it's just not how this particular game is set up.

Q6: What is the PCs' backstory with Azoth?

This requires a bit of context, so please bear with me. The Tiefling Rogue was accidentally teleported to Maelstrom, the home of the Storm Giants. She made friends with the Princess there, whose mother, the Queen, was killed by someone and her father, the King, was kidnapped. The Tiefling said, "I'll solve this problem" and that's what the Party has been up to. There was a clue of a gambling chip, and they traced it to a gambling ship in Serenissima. There, they learned of Azoth, and how he procured a special magic item through the owner of the gambling ship, a Shield of Forgetfulness that allows him to mind-dominate people. (Have you ever the read the first Elric book? If so, it's the like the magic mirror in that.) They tracked him down to a small fishing town about 70m outside Serenissima, where Azoth killed the Queen, and later, mind-controlled the King. He also mind-controlled the entire town, and short version, was about to sacrifice them all but the Party stopped him and members of this cult, but Azoth got away. This is the continuation of their chase. (There was an adventure in between where they got the airships to go the moon, but this is long enough as it is!)

Q7: How did Azoth get the permission from the goddesses? If in the same fashion, did you make allusions to it through the goddesses?

Great question! Presumably, the same way, which means a) he knows a secret he's not supposed to tell and b) gave up a secret. This looks like an opportunity to use that in the adventure, even if I'm not exactly sure how yet. I did not make allusions to it, because I'm a dummy, but I can be sure to do it in this part of the adventure.

Q8: What have you thought about the twin goddesses? Why do you choose twins? Did the PCs speak with the wrong one? Will it be used later on?

A little more backstory: the Library of the Giants was made by the King Giant God himself (can't recall his name) as a gift for his Giant children, but they spurned it, so, in a huff, King Giant God threw it into the sky and it landed on the moon. The moon belongs to Selune and Shar (who I pulled out of one of the D&D books), it's the realm of secrets, and that's why it was hidden and no one could find it. (Also: in my world, the moon is permanently half-light, half-dark -- the sand on the dark side is literally a different color -- and each side is controlled by a different sister. The Library landed right on the border -- fancy that! -- and they agreed to split ownership.)

They did not speak with the wrong one -- they had to talk to both. (More detail: the Library is spinning and corkscrewing because of whatever Azoth is doing in the Forbidden Books room. Whenever it turns, the half of the Library that was on the Light side is now on the Dark side, and vice versa. Selune's Room, where they needed to get permission, is in exactly the same place as Shar's room, depending on whether that room was on the Light or Dark side.)

Q9: Do those goddesses and other people there live on the moon? What makes life there different? Maybe this question might give you inspiration for details.

I treat my gods and goddesses like Moorcock does in the Elric books, where they sometimes manifest in weird ways but otherwise are kind of abstract. I've been treating the moon as it was like ours, barren, but I do think there is other stuff there. But I haven't given it much thought, since I didn't feel like it was relevant to what's inside the Forbidden Books room. But maybe it is relevant! I'll think on it.
 

Kza

Member
Wizard of Story
Part Three: The Confrontation! aka The Actual Actual Problem

Okay, a summary: the Party has found the entrance to the Secret Forbidden Books Room and stepped in. Presuming I stay with what I wrote above, they will each be individually tested in their own personal challenge/puzzle rooms, with the rooms being based on their companions' secrets. Once they solve them -- and the idea being they solve the room when they guess whose secret it is, so there's a finite number of choices -- they move onto the Actual For Real This Time Secret Forbidden Books Room Where Their Adversary Azoth Awaits.

And it's here where I really truly am stuck.

I think I can break down my problems/questions into a number of categories.

What does this place even look like?
One of my bugaboos when designing my own material is that, whatever I come up with, it has to make sense to me. I may have mentioned that I've been stuck on this problem for almost 3/4 of a year. What I didn't mention is that I was stuck on the whole Library of the Giants part -- getting there, breaking in, what it looks like, what's in it -- for a good 3 months or so before figuring it out, writing it down, and running it. And again, the part that was most difficult, and what I'm finding difficult here, is that I simply can't see it. I don't know what it looks like. And if I don't know what it looks like, then I can't move onto more prosaic issues like what kind of challenges are here, etc.

One thing I've always known about the Library of the Giants in general, is that I didn't want what I thought was a stereotypical idea of a D&D library -- the stone dungeon floors, the creaky wooden bookshelves, the mouldering books, the tapestries on the wall. What's more, although the Library of the Giants was designed by King God Giant, this Forbidden Books Room was added by Selune/Shar --- so it can be literally anything. A few months ago, I did some timed free writing on this problem, and something I suggested to myself is that maybe this Forbidden Books Room looks more like an Apple Store than anything else. I'm not married to that idea, but at the same time, that's the only real visual I have in my head so far. (Another borrowed image that came out of that freewriting: that bit in Futurama where Fry goes to the Mars University library and it's just two discs, Fiction and Non-Fiction. Not sure what to do with that, though.)

So, to summarize: I can't see this place in my imagination, and without that, I can't begin to contrive a scenario that involves the characters. Is it one big open room? Is it a bunch of corridors? Is it like the Cube in the movie Cube? Something in-between all those? And whatever it is... why is it like that?

What kind of scenario is this?
Another question I haven't answered -- what kind of scenario is this final scene? The obvious answer is "Stop Azoth," but there's some information I've neglected to give out that may change that. Azoth currently has in his possession this Shield of Forgetting, a dangerous magic item that can be used against the characters, but also, while it exists, Azoth has under his power both the townspeople of that fishing village, and the Storm Giant King, who is with him in the Forbidden Books Room. So while just outright killing Azoth is not a bad idea, it's possible that simply getting and destroying that Shield, freeing everyone under his control and rescuing the Storm Giant King, is more of a priority.

This is the kind of thing where, if I was writing a story or screenplay, I probably would have less of an issue, because I would write whatever was dramatically interesting, knowing that I would be making the choices for the characters. But for something like this, I need a scenario (and a map) that's big enough to contain whatever plan the players come up with, whether its an all-out attack on Azoth, or somehow trying to steal the shield from him, or what have you.

What the hell is Azoth doing?
So Azoth has entered this Forbidden Books Room to find what he needs to complete the spell to destroy Serenissima. But what is he actually doing when the characters arrive? Obviously, he isn't just standing around, twiddling his thumbs. He could be doing a lot of things. He could be still actively searching for his information. He could be in the middle of learning the information, maybe copying it down somehow. He could have found what he needs and is trying to find his way out (I still haven't defined how to leave this room, since everyone is teleported there). During my freewrite, I hit upon the idea that the Forbidden Books Room is itself a kind of trap, and that he's now mesmerized by the information, rendering him nullified, thus making the Room itself the big villain. (This has its pros and cons.) Clearly, I need to choose something, but nothing has jumped out as me as a good enough answer. I feel like I"m still missing information (information I need to create) in order to figure out which is the best choice.

There is also the issue of minions. Azoth is something like a 14th level spellcaster, but I've learned the hard way that the Party can curb stomp very high level opponents if there's only one. So a 1 vs. 7 battle should be avoided. If there are minions, who are they? Where do they come from? One idea that I've already used several times before is that Azoth can summon Demon help. I'm not opposed to that, but I've gone to that well a lot. Could the Room itself have minions? That's a fun idea, but then, what would they be, and why would they be antagonistic? Everyone there went through several tests to get there -- the Room is supposed to be the reward. If part of the art of building encounters is controlling the pace of the battle with minions, I'm not sure how to use that strategy here.

I may be blocked by subconscious fear!
Thinking about this, I realized there may be another factor in my writer's block, something I don't think anyone can help me with, but needs to be said anyway. The first time the Party encountered Azoth, it was in the fishing village that he mind controlled. His cult of Warlocks was there also, and they knew the Party was coming, so they up a number of traps and ambushes, leading to a big climactic fight with the Warlocks, who had all these devastating spells at the ready. It was going to be a tough encounter, possibly the toughest the Party had ever encountered.

It was a cakewalk for the Party.

My Warlocks looked like chumps out there. I let my Warlocks roll for initiative individually, and they all biffed it. Most of them were out before they got a turn, the ones that were able to get off a spell were counterspelled, and they were all gone by the end of round 2. I should note that I don't think the players were disappointed by any of this -- they love it when they win, and they tend to treat every combat as life or death, since they are usually in the dark about what kind of abilities a monster has and how many hit points they have. But it did feel like a failure to me. And it made me realize that, when it comes to D&D, I am really hopeless when it comes to constructing what's supposed to be a big, tough battle. I'm always afraid of making it too tough, and the end result is that it's never too tough. But it seems like the toughness "dial" is like .0001 inches wide, and anything to the left of that is too easy and anything to the right of that is a TPK. (I'm not sure my players could handle a TPK.)

This Warlock encounter wasn't the first of that nature -- there were several minor battles in the past that were similar -- but it was the most spectacular. And I can't help but wonder if part of my block is me trying to keep from feeling like that again.

And that's it!
If you've read this far, even if you don't offer any suggestions or ideas, I still want to thank you. This whole thing is a big ask, and I appreciate any time you might give to it. If you want to offer suggestions or ideas, please do so, and please understand that you can throw me any idea you want, regardless how wacky or ill-considered it might be. I'll take anything! Even if I don't like your idea, it still might be just the thing to dislodge this block I'm having.

Thank you!

Kza
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
So, in my mind, this Secret Forbidden Books Room is broken into three parts:
1. A kind of lobby/foyer area where someone, probably an avatar of Selune/Shar, gives the Party an idea of what's going to happen next, which is they will be presented with challenges to prove their worth;
2. The Party members are individually teleported to mini-puzzles/min-challenges (more on that below), that once they complete, they move onto:
3. The Actual Room Itself, which in my mind is a big confrontation with Azoth, although maybe it isn't? Depends what we come up with.
First you describe it as a room, and then there is again a lobby, a teleport room and then the actual room? I think, your players may be disappointed as they might get the feeling that you rob them of their accomplishment. They thought that they had already found the secret room and are at their goal, maybe even expecting a sudden clash with Azoth. Instead, you say they meet the goddesses again...

I like the idea of the mini-challenges. That makes it fun as they are riddles to be solved by the players.

I like the foyer idea, but I would then make it like several rows of books this connects to and you need to decide which row to go into. Of course, there should be some kind of indication, what they can expect there. Maybe it is even a maze. But I would not only place books there, I would also place dangerous magical items (or plants) that can become quite dangerous for the PCs, a hassle, or just chaotic when accidentaly activated and kept uncontrolled. I'm actually thinking a little bit of The Bureau of Magical Things (Netflix). Also, the tone might work with your adventure.

If you don't know whether you want to have a big combat at the end, why not make it another kind of combat: a combat of wits. Say, Azoth is also in the Secret Forbidden Books Room and tries to solve a riddle. He may be flustered that the PCs arrive. If he is "on the other side" of the Forbidden Library (I am thinking of different floor tiles, creamy white and dark grey, standing for the influence by the twin goddesses.
Why not make it a game for the goddesses to see whose champion(s) will win in the "Game of Secrets"? That could be their leasure time as gods.
Also, when Azoth activates a mechanism, the whole room changes and now the PCs are in Shar's part of the room. But she will be tricky and not play fair. By the way, you should mention without doubt, that it is Serenissima, that Azoth wants to destroy for his summoning (that's what it is, right?). If you mention Serenissima strongly enough and allude to his plans (he may need to expose his secret in front of everyone as part of the game of secrets) the players will feel much stronger about Serenissima afterwards.

The one thing about this that is almost immutable, is that the second part was intended to be a series of puzzles and/or challenges, that are based on the secrets they whispered to Shar back in the other part of the adventure. When I made up that part, I genuinely had no idea I would be using that as the basis for next part of the adventure. And it seems silly not to use it. But how to use it? My first instinct was to use the 5 Room Adventure template, and since there were 7 secrets, one for each player, I doubled it up into 10 Rooms, and had it mapped out like:
I like the idea of riddles, but I would strongly suggest that you don't play 1 on 1 for each of the players during this time, but include the other players and make it rather a team effort. Even if you say, that you only need 10 minutes per player, it is almost 60min before the last player get's his/her chance. That seems way too much for your youngest players. Of course, you want to use the secrets. I would also. But why not make it that the secrets they told Selune are key to the solutions. But the PCs cannot talk about it! (Of course, I would warn them, when they are going in that direction and not just zap them dead. Give them a shock and a zap, but not deadly. Maybe it was Selune's secret that she doesn't actually have the power to make such powerful magic? Anyways, how will they communicate a secret without telling it? That may be Selunes focus or point of view regarding secrets. Shar's point of view might be that secrets about oneself are often not taught to others, because one really doesn't want others to know. But now, these secrets are also important to the solution and they need to be made public in one way or another. Will the PCs do this?

In contrast, if we went with the above, then it wouldn't be fair for Azoth to be only one person, he would be over with his riddles in no time. What if you gave him 6 followers to even the numbers. Maybe he even needed to wait for the PCs to arrive (by the way, I didn't say so above, but there could be an impenetrable glass wall between both sides of the room). So that the two groups start simultaneously. But the cultists worship him and will tell him any secrets. And they will take lightning strikes for their master. Thus, the cultists will soon be leading and winning...
Regarding the point, how he might get 6 acolytes back, either he himself revived them (thus the players will never know), or the mindflayers are taken for this, or Shar summons them for him for this game (from the dead - so that the PCs can identify them again as those they originally slayed).
I hope you understand, what I mean, although I'm just typing my thoughts without any restructuring.

Regarding the 5RD idea... I would definitely change the type of riddles and tone of the encounters, but I would not set one riddle for a specific player as a setback and the other as a climax. That seems unfair. Do the riddles need to be done in a specific order?
Whatever the case, from a game designer perspective I would definitely include a mechanism how the two parties can influence each other, i.e. hindering their progress. My first thought is that it may be like in the boardgame Labyrinth, but what if the cultists' progress (represented by a sand clock or just described by you) lets them unlock options and items like a horn of silence? If they use it on the PCs, they can only communicate without words for a minute or so. I'm just thinking of how to make this game within the game more interesting for your players.

Also, what if only half of the riddles can be accessed on each side? With each win of the cultists, you could describe how the tower rotates or the sand is falling more vehemently. Thus, I would not use a separate dimension for the mini-games, but make them all accessable (but not at once). The secret library is in itself already a separate dimension, is it not?

For tips to cool riddles, you could look at typical escape room games. They are great for input on difficulty and diversity. But I would suggest you keep a common tone, e.g. that all of them have something to do with secrets (or their specific PC secrets counterparts).

At heart, this part of the Secret Forbidden Books Room is basically a party game.
Ok... so the secrets are silly. I would love to have a complete look at what everybody was given by Selune and what they told Shar. I think that you are right about the party game aspect, but I still think, it is much too long if you were to give each player 10 minutes. What if they get stuck or just try everybody? Personally, I do not like the gods as show masters, rather spectators who bid on their favorite party.

You could make it more thrilling, if you dealt damage to a random PC whenever they guessed wrong. This way, a player would be conflicted whether to just try something out as this could mean a lightnig bolt or plume of gas on some other player's PC.

Snickering is good, but I would expect the players to look here for more consistency and drama instead of comedy. Also, with constant comedy you would not be able to introduce a feeling for Serenissima here. But you can use such comedy scenes to lighten up the tone as preparation for the next, more sinister secret. Also: who would honestly tell others that he/she is sniffing someone else's feet? If the players are immersed enough, this is not just a silly secret, it is a very well-kept secret, because it could ruin one's social standing within the group.

Now I need a secret for my GMPC.
I say go for it. Think of a secret. Make him part of this. Telling others one's secrets is no small thing. You can present your character with a facet that the others would never have guessed. It makes for great roleplaying opportunity.
Some instant things that come to mind: "I killed my brother", "I am secretly in love with (other PC)", "I'm only pretending to be from (...). I was born in a castle and decided later on to become a barbarian.", "I think everybody is much more intelligent than me. That's why I secretly read books when on watch.", "When in rage, I don't remember much. I'm afraid of becoming a monster.", "Although I am good at fighting, I do not like it. And those scars here are not from that giant muse I told you, but from when I accidentally dropped into my own dagger.", ...
 

Stephan Hornick

Community Goblin & Master of the Archive
Platinum WoA
Wizard of Story
Wizard of Combat
Borderland Explorer
One thing I've always known about the Library of the Giants in general, is that I didn't want what I thought was a stereotypical idea of a D&D library -- the stone dungeon floors, the creaky wooden bookshelves, the mouldering books, the tapestries on the wall. What's more, although the Library of the Giants was designed by King God Giant, this Forbidden Books Room was added by Selune/Shar --- so it can be literally anything. A few months ago, I did some timed free writing on this problem, and something I suggested to myself is that maybe this Forbidden Books Room looks more like an Apple Store than anything else. I'm not married to that idea, but at the same time, that's the only real visual I have in my head so far. (Another borrowed image that came out of that freewriting: that bit in Futurama where Fry goes to the Mars University library and it's just two discs, Fiction and Non-Fiction. Not sure what to do with that, though.)

So, to summarize: I can't see this place in my imagination, and without that, I can't begin to contrive a scenario that involves the characters. Is it one big open room? Is it a bunch of corridors? Is it like the Cube in the movie Cube? Something in-between all those? And whatever it is... why is it like that?
First of all: Why is it like that? Because the twin gods like it that way or it is due to their twin nature.

This room doesn't need to be about the giants as you say. If it were, why not make everything gigantic. Or in contrast, why not make the puzzles itself tiny? Or you play with sizes in general, like in Alice in Wonderland when she ate that biscuit and became small and that tea and became huge (or was it the other way around?). You can use those tropes.

Also, when you say apple store or Futurama and such, why not make a great leap to another setting for a short period of time, say fantasy PCs in a futuristic setting. I personally like my haste for the clues idea above better, but maybe that is what you like more.

what kind of scenario is this final scene? The obvious answer is "Stop Azoth,"
Just a thought: What if stopping the other party is by solving the puzzles and whenever you do the other party is flooded a little bit more by sand from above (on the one hand representing the sand clock, on the other that the tower is indeed collapsing).

This is the kind of thing where, if I was writing a story or screenplay, I probably would have less of an issue, because I would write whatever was dramatically interesting, knowing that I would be making the choices for the characters. But for something like this, I need a scenario (and a map) that's big enough to contain whatever plan the players come up with, whether its an all-out attack on Azoth, or somehow trying to steal the shield from him, or what have you.
So, this is a great dilemma. You should present this as a moral decision: kill him before he escapes via a portal or retrieve the shield he throws as a diversion. Or: when the PCs finally win their "game of secrets" (in case you go with this), they have the decision to either let that part fill with sand killing the cultists or open the glass wall and allow the sand to also fill their area, but allowing all to be rescued (or to retrieve the shield).
In any case, the mission should not be "kill Azoth", but something more difficult like "retrieve the shield unused and unharmed while fending Azoth off and possibly stopping him." The focus is better on some other goal than to kill someone. The way they do it will differ for sure. You will not be able to plan for every circumstance or plan.

So Azoth has entered this Forbidden Books Room to find what he needs to complete the spell to destroy Serenissima.
I like the idea of him having a scroll in his hand. He should be rewarded this scroll during his endeavors there and during the riddles with the other players. This changes the momentum of the game dramatically! Use this for a moment of low tone to instantly increase the tone again. Then, he has fulfilled his part, but the players may not have completed their part yet. Maybe he will expect to be free again, but Shar only smiles and didn't tell him everything (again the allusion to a secret!). He may be infuriated and argues, he may ask the PCs for help or he may be looking for an additional scroll (teleport) and needs to continue the riddles. And when he actually succeeds in gaining it, the PCs are also ready. He will summon the teleportation portal, but may be stopped by the PCs who then need to decide whether to jump through the portal to escape themselves or to rescue him also or to fulfill something else. The imminent danger of a collapsing tower and sand that is gradually filling the room is enhancing the thrilling tone of the encounter very much. Combine this with a moral dilemma and you should have great gameplay.

If there are minions, who are they? Where do they come from?
Why not make them re-animated or even spectral cultists that the PCs killed before.

But it did feel like a failure to me. And it made me realize that, when it comes to D&D, I am really hopeless when it comes to constructing what's supposed to be a big, tough battle. I'm always afraid of making it too tough, and the end result is that it's never too tough.
Recently, I saw a video on exactly this by Matthew Colville. He uses powerful foes, but doesn't start with the most powerful abilities. He has them in his sleaves for later if it is too easy, but he will deliberately make them less powerful at the moment if needed to. The almighty wizard may already have used that powerful spell today... he has already been hurt by a trap before... he is not so strong as his colleagues... also, you don't need to play them all tricky, they can make mistakes, or they don't need to kill the party if they truly are much stronger.
So, yeah, maybe they win. Why should they kill them? They are cultists, are they not? They could also take them alive for a ritual later?
Or they could do it like the slaads: When they slam a PC down and unconscious and are about to kill them, they begin to bargain. They will trade the life of their fallen companion for the party to leave (and leave an artifact).
Honestly though, I make it the other way around. I like using many weak enemies (goblins, kobolds, skaven and the like) and give them one sly master. I will use as many as I like and give them great combat tactics (see my thread on combat tactics and stratagems). It is more challenging for me, but so much more fun.

So, I hope some of the above is helpful to you in any kind. Let me say this though: I think the ideas you have are nice! And the fact that the party confronts a group of spellslingers and comes out with ease, is astonishing in itself. An almost complete TNPCK is what should motivate Azoth to be even fiercer and more reckless. Who says that he wouldn't sell his soul to the Three Mothers in the end to destroy the moon realm instead (hoping to destroy the PCs within). And when you have such great events that the PCs almost killed everyone, some of their family, friends, lovers and colleagues will try to take revenge and may confront the PCs later on. Great re-union and showing that their deeds have consequences. Also, maybe Azoth has become much stronger in the meantime or now uses different kinds of minions who cannot be overwhelmed by the PCs so easily.

Just an idea: One of the riddles / tasks could be to retrieve a golden key from within a gelatinous cube. This should be quite difficult. There is a great video on those creatures from MrRhexx.

Just post any further question / problem you may have. If not with the above, maybe I can help with other things.
 

Kza

Member
Wizard of Story
Thanks, Stephan!

I copied the entirety of your responses into my text file so I can go through it line by line and highlight the bits that spark for me. Just skimming through it I can already see some interesting ideas I hadn't even thought of, so this is great. This will probably take me some time, so I might not respond for a week. But again, thank you!

If anyone else out there is reading, don't be shy about tossing in your two cents as well. There are no wrong answers really, just gradations of "better," so feel free to reply!

Kza
 
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